Brought to you by the Depression Is Real Coalition, The Down &
Up Show is dedicated to the reality of depression. Our
hosts will talk with some of the world's top experts on depression, as
well as people who have been impacted by this illness. The
reality of depression is that it is a debilitating and potentially
deadly medical condition that affects more than 15 million Americans
every year. The other reality of depression is that there is
hope.
Down & Up Show #55: Fathers with Depression
DR. REEF KARIM:
Okay. Welcome to the Down and Up Show on Depressionisreal.org.
I'm your host, Dr. Reef Karim, psychiatrist, addiction specialist
and relationship therapist. Our guest today is Clarence Jordan
who's on the board of directors of the National Alliance in Mental
Illness, one of the Depression is Real coalition members.
He's a 15 year Navy veteran and a recipient of Navy Commendation
and Achievement Medals. He is also the Manager for Consumer Recovery
Services for Magellan Health Services in Tennessee. Clarence is
going to discuss his experience with depression and talk about
how his experience may be helpful to other fathers like him who
are struggling with this disease. Welcome, Clarence.
CLARENCE JORDAN
Thank you, Dr. Karim. It's an honor to be on your show.
DR. REEF KARIM
Oh, well, thank you. Could you tell us about your experience with
depression? What were some of the symptoms of depression that
you faced and how did you come to seek help for those problems?
CLARENCE JORDAN
Well, my symptoms, I think, were classic symptoms of lack of interest,
despair, confusion and anger, a sense of general hopelessness.
I believe it was the consequences of the untreated illness that
were the most problematic for me. A sense of (unint.). There
was no joy in my life.
My spirit felt cold. I floundered from city to city, from job to
job. I actually didn't seek help; help more or less found me.
DR. REEF KARIM
What does that mean?
CLARENCE JORDAN
Well, living that lifestyle, a lifestyle of self-medication, you
soon run afoul of the law. And it was an astute judge who gave
me a choice of either going into treatment or going to jail.
DR. REEF KARIM
Yeah, that would do it.
CLARENCE JORDAN
Yeah.
DR. REEF KARIM
Wow! Yeah, you mentioned-you mentioned anger, right, and irritability.
I think what a lot of people don't realize is that depression
has different presentations. And in adolescence it definitely
comes out in the way of irritability and anger and mood instability
or like real changes in that irritability, anger kind of mood.
And in you it presented that way as well. So it has different presentations.
CLARENCE JORDAN
Oh, indeed. Yeah. I think the one thing that we can do, and you
pointed this out, is to have more research and a better understanding
as to how the illness manifests itself in different demographic
groups.
DR. REEF KARIM
Right. Right. Yeah because for adolescents might be different than
men, for men it's different from women, for... I mean, there
are some cardinal signs and symptoms that you just know based
on our history of depression, but there some subtle changes and
some tweaks in different demographic groups.
At the APA event on Military Mental Health, you mentioned that
the Navy gave you courage, trust and integrity to seek help for
your depression and stand up to this disease. That sounds great.
I mean, can you elaborate a little bit about that?
CLARENCE JORDAN
Well, what I have learned is that there are certain resiliency
factors, some of which are intangible as well as tangible. It's
these resiliency factors that I used as a-as the basis of my
recovery process and still use today. Those things that you just
mentioned - honor, integrity, fidelity - are all things that
I took away from my years in service.
DR. REEF KARIM
Okay. For our listeners out there who might be parents, can you
provide some perspective on how depression affects families and
childrearing, because you are a father?
CLARENCE JORDAN
Oh, indeed. Well, first of all, I think it's important to understand
that you are really kind of missing in action. Emotionally you're
just simply not there, and soon physically you're not there either.
In my case my children lost out.
They lost out on the most important things I had to give them -
time, attention and direction - resulting in, leastwise in my youngest
daughter, issues that just got passed along creating yet another
generation of wounded individuals.
DR. REEF KARIM
In your opinion, what's the biggest misconception about men, especially
fathers?
CLARENCE JORDAN
I would say a general lack of understanding about what the illness
is. Most of us don't know what we don't know. We are raised with
a lot of stuff as kids, a conception that real men are not supposed
to talk about their feelings, being very, very macho and so forth
and so on.
Adapt and overcome, I think, is the general rule that as men and
as fathers we kind of live by. There's a code that men are supposed
to be, and I don't disagree with that, the pillar of the family.
And certainly I believe that is true. But at the same time, I think
there are some misconceptions that go along with that role that
are most detrimental.
DR. REEF KARIM
How has depression or how's the treatment of depression for you
benefited your life and in particular your family life?
CLARENCE JORDAN
Well, first of all, I'm a very religious individual and the very
first thing that I engaged in was this sense of atonement followed
by a renewed sense of hope, of connectedness with my community.
And through helping others I gained a great deal of patience
which assisted in the reconciliation with my family.
And that reconciliation process wasn't an easy one. You know, it
meant taking ownership of decades of wreckage of my past. I had
to more or less seek permission from my daughters who are now adults
to restore our relationship, first my oldest and then my youngest
daughter.
And it's a-it's a very, very slow process but I believe certainly
a journey worth engaging in.
DR. REEF KARIM
So, as you said, being the-being a father, being a pillar of the
family, but then at the same time because the father has depression,
they're emotionally, I think you put it, missing in action...
CLARENCE JORDAN
Uh huh.
DR. REEF KARIM
...how-how-how did you find the kids responded to that, because
they're waiting for their Dad to be the pillar and Dad's kind
of checked out. So when you get treatment and you're back, sometimes
it's not an instant process where they're like, "Oh, look, Dad's
back and it's all good".
Sometimes it's a definitive transition in kind of putting that
family back together.
CLARENCE JORDAN
Yeah. Yeah. Well, in my case, you know, when I say I physically
wasn't there, I physically wasn't there. My second marriage ended
in divorce and as far as my youngest daughter was concerned,
I-there were decades that we had-shared no quality time at all
with.
And so because of my illness and the things that I was going through,
she lost out on her father. And so-and that's part of that wreckage
that you take along with you that at some point you really need
to reconcile. Recovery is more than just remission of symptoms
or learning how to live with your symptoms or taking medication.
Recovery, to me, is actually regaining your life which-often times
meaning dealing with the disability that comes as a result of the
symptoms you experience.
DR. REEF KARIM
That was well said. What do you look forward to most on Father's
Day, because it's Father's Day coming up, right?
CLARENCE JORDAN
Yeah, it is, and...
DR. REEF KARIM
Any-anything in particular makes you think that taking the time
to get treatment was all worth it?
CLARENCE JORDAN
Oh, absolutely. I have been presented with a new, very wonderful
wife and this Father's Day I have the added blessing of looking
forward to the birth of my first son.
DR. REEF KARIM
Oh, congratulations.
CLARENCE JORDAN
Well, thank you.
DR. REEF KARIM
So what do you believe needs to be done to further encourage men
on this Father Day to help-to seek help and treatment for depression
and erase the stigma of the disease around us?
CLARENCE JORDAN
Well, certainly, Dr. Karim, shows like this one really do help.
Normalization of the illness, I heard on a previous show, and
I forget the speaker's name, talked about normalization of the
illness, making it like any other illness. Certainly research
into ways in which different demographic groups experience the
illness, I think, helps.
It certainly helps to promote greater accuracy of diagnosis. General
depression screening and more education and information concerning
the illness at-in general.
DR. REEF KARIM
Okay. Any advice to fathers or family members of men who are living
with untreated depression that might encourage them to seek help?
CLARENCE JORDAN
Wow... I would say self-medication isn't the answer. We need to
quit making excuses for ourselves. Quit looking-quit looking
to blame. That blame game really gets us in trouble quick. It
isn't anyone's fault. And certainly you can't do it alone. When
I say you can't do it alone, I mean dealing with the illness
and getting yourself into a recovery routine takes time and it
takes a system, help from others.
DR. REEF KARIM
Now can you tell us a little bit about the work you're doing now?
CLARENCE JORDAN
Well, as a board member of NAMI, I've committed myself to the mission
of NAMI. I think we're all familiar with that. We concern ourselves
with improvement of life for those individuals who are affected
with the illness. In my job, my professional life, I'm a part
of a team.
I'm part of a team that continues to seek new, innovative ways
of providing better services-service options and treatment outcomes
for those individuals affected with behavioral health issues.
DR. REEF KARIM
And NAMI does a lot of good work in the field and with regards
to stigma as well. They're definitely more open to learning more
(inaud.) from them. Any way I can help out, too, let me know
on that.
CLARENCE JORDAN
Oh, indeed. And, again, I think this show has really helped. I
hope that others will take heed and pay attention.
DR. REEF KARIM
Okay, any last thoughts you want to share before we close?
CLARENCE JORDAN
I would say take time to acknowledge those who have lost their
lives to the invisible enemy within us, and in so doing perhaps
their deaths would not have been in vain. One parting thought
- Semper Fi.
DR. REEF KARIM
That's great. That is definitely something to think about. All
right, thank you, Clarence. We really appreciate you speaking with
us today.
CLARENCE JORDAN
I appreciate you having me here. Thank you.
DR. REEF KARIM
Okay, thank you. Join us next week for another segment of the Down
and Up Show on Depressionisreal.org. I'm Dr. Reef Karim.
