Brought to you by the Depression Is Real Coalition, The Down & Up Show is dedicated to the reality of depression. Our hosts will talk with some of the world's top experts on depression, as well as people who have been impacted by this illness. The reality of depression is that it is a debilitating and potentially deadly medical condition that affects more than 15 million Americans every year. The other reality of depression is that there is hope.

Down & Up Show #39: Black Pain: It Just Looks Like We're Not Hurting

DR. REEF KARIM:
Okay welcome to the Down and Up Show on Depression is Real.org, I'm your host for today's show, Dr. Reef Karim, psychiatrist, addiction specialist and relationship therapist. It's my pleasure to welcome back a good friend of the show, Terrie Williams who has served as a host several times, like myself.

Terrie manages her own public relations agency and a Stay Strong Foundation, a nationally acclaimed non-profit organization that supports, educates and inspires youth, a very important thing. Today Terrie is with us to discuss her new book, and I love this title, ñBlack Pain, It Just Looks Like We're Not Hurtingî, which discusses the deep and profound problem with depression in African-Americans.

Terrie it's great to have you back on the show today.

TERRIE WILLIAMS:
I am so happy to be here and on this end too.

DR. REEF KARIM:
Okay, so first off, can you share a little bit about your current (unint.) with depression and how you overcame depression?

TERRIE WILLIAMS:
Well first of all I would just say that I'm a work in progress and I am someone who, you know, continues to heal day by day. I have lived with low grade depression over half my life, really kind of sort of noticed it when I was in college and graduate school.

Found myself sleeping a lot with the shades drawn. When I had my papers often ready maybe a week or two before they were due, but then I just spent time in my room, you know, kind of sleeping, not kind of sleeping, sleeping. And so I first sought a therapist around that time and I don't think I was really, really committed to the process and I don't think that I was diagnosed properly with what I was dealing with.

And so you wear the mask, you just wear the mask everyday and that's what you get up and do everyday and you're not tending to your needs and for me I was giving away so much of myself to other people that finally the mask cracked about four years ago and I you know, had a breakdown and I, for about nine months, could could barely get out of the bed in mornings.

I would wakeup with a crippling anxiety, would lie there in my bed in the fetal position in tears, with the sheet over my head and it took every ounce of energy that I had to to get up, to shower, to bathe and to put on that mask and go out into the world. There also was what else did it look like for me?

Very, very irritable, I would snap at people, I would sleep often and late. I would eat to run from the pain, a lot of emotional eating. Many times I knew that I was not hungry, but I needed and wanted something to to comfort me. And so I it was one of the darkest episodes of my life.

And I just it was a combination of just really, really strengthening my relationship with God, some the goodness of some friends who intervened and got me to a therapist started to take medication, did the therapy thing once a week and I started to work with a trainer and just started to notice myself more.

So it was a pretty horrific experience and it wasn't just the depression, you know, it was the stress of pretending that I was fine when I was really dying inside. You know, it is just horrific. And then I used to sometimes wonder when people would say that God told them to do something.

But I I know now that he does whisper in our ears or when a thought comes to us that that's that voice inside is prompting. And so I heard clearly one day that I had to share my story and so I began that, you know, healing while healing it's leading while bleeding and helping without hurting.

And then you show your story with somebody else, it's it's amazing, you know, it's you get the gift, the other person has a a motto, an example of how to go through the fire and come out on the other side. But I shared my story in ñEssence Magazineî about three years ago and received thousands and thousands of letters.

And people who were really had never told anyone that they suffered from depression, I was the only person who knew, best friends didn't know and family members didn't know. And so it's what led me to write this book, and obviously depression is a a universal issue.

There's just a whole other set of circumstances with with black Americans in this country and so I think for the most part we we really don't know what our pain looks like, what it sounds like and what it feels like. And so I set out to write a book that would reach the young person on the street who might be gang-banging all the way to the most accomplished of us who think that our material wealth and means cushions the pain.

DR. REEF KARIM:
The mask is such a great metaphor for you compensate, you know.

It's just who wants to walk around just look at the signs of depression. I mean it's just a and you know this better then better then most people here. Feelings of hopelessness, helplessness, worthlessness, no motivation, poor concentration, attention, memory, sleep problems, appetite problems, fatigue, anxiety.

You put that all together, you don't want to show the world that. I mean who works want to walk around showing the world all of that pain that you have (unint.). So we compensate

TERRIE WILLIAMS:
The pain

DR. REEF KARIM:
You know, one question that I have for you is let's say it's it's a minority group that's that's had a history of really struggling over time, be it racism, prejudice whatever whatever you want to call it, overtime that is that compensatory mechanism to not show your flaws and your vulnerability, going to be higher and more difficult to penetrate then somebody's who had to really deal with a lot of stress and prejudice and racism in the past?

TERRIE WILLIAMS:
You know it's it's interesting, the points that you made and it's part of what I think makes the experience really so difficult for black Americans and one is, you know, the history of slavery and racism which has really affected us and the pain has been passed on for generations of people who get no help, you know, as a result of being oppressed, one suppresses the anger and the rage.

And in terms of slavery it work but not now. And so I see our pain screaming out at us every single day newspaper headlines and at almost every turn. And what I know is that you know not only do we inherit the pain of our parents and our foremothers and forefathers and no matter how well-intentioned and loving our parents are, they pass that pain onto us.

And so their their joys, their their talents, their their dashed hopes and dreams, all of that shapes us. And and so we never seem to talk about what hurts us, what moves us, what scars us, the lies that we are... are told, the secrets that we're told to keep. And so we just we we grow every single day but we're harboring such pain and hostility.

And it just kind of sits inside of us or it comes out, you know, we self-medicate with drugs, alcohol, food sex. We gamble, we have promiscuous sex you know, working 27 24/7, those are just some of the signs of, you know, to adding onto what you mentioned before. But for many of us, I think we just haven't named our pain. You know we don't know what it looks like, what it feels like, what it sounds like and I think there are too many that African-Americans because this is the book that I wrote, ñDark Pain, It Just Looks Like We're Not Hurtingî. But there are too many people in the country really, who have no means to release their pain.

DR. REEF KARIM:
It sounds like what you're saying is that in in the experience of of an African-American or specific types of African-American, you you may have more of them, environmental stress that can elicit the depression.

TERRIE WILLIAMS:
Absolutely and you know black women are at much greater risk for breast cancer then are then are white women because of those stresses and no place to go with them or because of the stigma. Now granted there's, you know, the stigma issue is one that's universal.

But I know that for for black people, you know, it's it's perceived as a sign of weakness that if there's some type of mental illness or we would tell rather tell someone that we have a relative in jail on drugs before we would be mention the word, you know, mental illness.

And then we're also a very faith-based people and so we would we would feel sometimes we often feel that the only thing that we need to do is pray and that we are in fact betraying God if we seek help. So there are and and there are just a lot of issues and the other one too is there's a basic mistrust of the medical industry because of studies that were done years ago of black people used as guinea pigs (unint.) experiment.

DR. REEF KARIM:
It was so interesting that you said about the the first off stigma, saying that jail and drugs are more acceptable then saying you have a mental health (unint.)

TERRIE WILLIAMS:
That's right.

DR. REEF KARIM:
I mean I mean that's stigma, you know what I mean? Or you can say I just got out of prison, I was there for 10 years, I'm like (unint.) drug charges, but I don't got the (unint.).

TERRIE WILLIAMS:
That's right, that's right

DR. REEF KARIM:
And the concept of a faith-based saying that seeking medical treatment, obviously the distrust aside, seeking medical treatment is a betrayal

TERRIE WILLIAMS:
Yes.

DR. REEF KARIM:
in some people from your faith.

TERRIE WILLIAMS:
Yes.

DR. REEF KARIM:
That's pretty hard core.

TERRIE WILLIAMS:
Yes it is and it's you know, there are times I have shared my story with people and I hear you know certain people said, oh, oh that's just the devil in you and you can pray that away. But I know that it was my God that led me to the right therapist who got me on you know the road to healing.

So there are those kinds of issues that we that we've, you know, having to address. So it's it's a big wakeup call, I try to get Mary Jo Blige (ph.) is an amazing and gifted singer who wrote the forward for the book and she's a really great example of someone who works through her pain through her music.

So that I encourage people to write in journals or talk in tape recorders to just kind of record their feelings as they move through through their lives. But I try to get well known and average people to talk, you know, for the first time publicly about their pain.

You know Fifty Cents say in the book that anger is the emotion that he's most comfortable with, that's all you know and if you've never talked about or released your early childhood pain, then everything you do is colored by that emotion that just never gets addressed.

DR. REEF KARIM:
Well we talked about stigma, let's what do you think needs to be done in your opinion to improve the perception of depression in the African-American community?

TERRIE WILLIAMS:
We just have we have to talk, as I said you know, since this book has come out, someone said to me, that she bought the book because she wanted to support me as a friend but then she said I realized that this wasn't a book, as she said, you you put up a propped up a full length mirror that exposed all the you know facades that that I had.

And what I'm just finding is we have to share our stories with each other, that the person right next to you has as many holes or more or less then you do and so we're all going through the same thing. Not standing on that ledge by yourself cause if you look to the left and to the right and behind you there are everybody's there.

DR. REEF KARIM:
So let's talk about your book a little more.

It's surely the kind of book that can encourage other African-Americans to speak out about depression. Is there is it like, you know, we've touched on this a little bit. Is it something where, hey read the book, hopefully it will bring up feelings in just the African-American experience, or if you have depression? And then what do you do then?

TERRIE WILLIAMS:
Well you know first of all yes, it's I just feel very blessed that the book through me, but yes, read the book, buy it, go to the library, whatever you have to do, like your life depends on it because it does. I've actually had reporters who interviewed me to say that they had to put the book down because they just began to weep because the stories are very raw and honest.

And there's just no way that one would ever read this book and see themselves the same way again or anyone that you know, it's that we're all dealing with something and need to speak about, you know, to each other. You know we if you and the thing is if you know, if you're not doing work that brings you joy and just working a gig and holding out for for a paycheck.

That's you know, that can be an issue and cause, you know, just episodes of depression or if there's a major transition, life transition you know, death, divorce a new job, getting married, there are so many things that can can cause you to spiral downwards if you're not paying attention.

DR. REEF KARIM:
Our bodies want to release the (unint.) pain, we just have to have that release mechanism to do it. That's what I tell people and (unint.) therapy is good for anyone, I mean I don't care who you are, therapy is a good thing, it's not just something that's there for people that are sick or in trouble

TERRIE WILLIAMS:
That's right.

DR. REEF KARIM:
(Unint.) because you know what, a lot of us, especially with our ADD society, we don't, as you said, very openly, we don't have time or a willingness to check in on ourselves and and therapy is a time to do that.

TERRIE WILLIAMS:
That's right, it is, you know, it is I wish, I so wish that everyone on the planet had access. It is a gift that you give yourself, if one is able to afford it, but it's a gift. What a blessing to be able to focus on yourself at least an hour a week. In the absence of that I encourage people to to come together, groups, in someone's home in their church community.

And and just take a layer of the mask off and you will just find people gravitate toward you. When I've been moving through the country talking and doing you know book signings and things like that. People share their stories, their vulnerabilities and it's the very thing that then draws people over to them.

And that person shares you know a bit about their journey, it's so incredibly healing.

DR. REEF KARIM:
What what suggestions does your book provide to those who are too proud or too ashamed to speak out for depression?

TERRIE WILLIAMS:
Well it's (unint.) the pride and the shame is killing you and I know a really incredibly gifted man who's in the public eye who is so very, very, very full of rage, knows that he's full of rage and just can't seem to bring himself to do it because of pride, because of shame.

And he's killing himself. It's a slow death, at some point the mask will crack, at some point the body can't take anymore liquor, it can't take any more cigarettes and so it's a slow death. So it's what is it what do what do you want more? And again as I said, I really, really believe that reading this book ñBlack Painî will give one insights into what's wrong, what's going on in their lives.

DR. REEF KARIM:
How have readers responded so far to the book and then what part of the book do you like best?

TERRIE WILLIAMS:
The response has has been astonishing to me. I just I get, you know, through people every single day, just telling me that they saw themselves in it. Someone the other day had a 21 year old, a lot of depression on college campuses and their 21 year old cousin had to leave school.

And so you know, this is you know this is an issue that we don't know enough about and we don't talk about it. So she asked me if I would sign a book for her, for her cousin. And she also got one for her parents because this is such new territory, people do not know people just do not know how to navigate the waters of mental illness.

So I am incredibly gratified. I thank God every single day for just allowing to be a vehicle for the message, it made my life come full circle. And what I would really, you know, our listeners to just kind of keep in mind is that when you go through the fire and you come out on the other side, still standing tall and strong, is that you went through that so that you would have a testimony to share with someone else.

DR. REEF KARIM:
Yeah I think we're all glad you did and you know I agree with you, I mean we definitely need to be working more in the future, people from the mental health treatment world, people who have suffered from this, people that are writing about this and they're talking.

And we all need to be working together on this because this is a a big task here.

TERRIE WILLIAMS:
Yes it is.

DR. REEF KARIM:
To educate people you know?

TERRIE WILLIAMS:
Yes it is.

DR. REEF KARIM:
Alright any closing thoughts on your book, on the subject

TERRIE WILLIAMS:
I don't just no just that we have to just kind of try to live each day you know as it comes, to take one day at a time and the tiniest baby step that you take, recognize the victory in it you know. You know well I have trouble (unint.) people consider it too much information, but if you're one of those people who have to relieve yourself and you hold it all the time for one more meeting, one more phone call, one more, more.

And it's the end of the day, you still haven't gone you know when I when I at the first sign that I got to go and I do go, I consider that a victory because I'm always holding it. We have to look at the tiny things that we do as a victory and I just encourage people to you know, use your gifts and resources to make a difference in somebody else's life, to recycle the inspiration.

DR. REEF KARIM:
I like that, recycle the inspiration that's (unint.). Alright, well thank you for speaking with us today Terrie

TERRIE WILLIAMS:
My pleasure and I look forward to talking and working with you

DR. REEF KARIM:
Likewise, likewise. Alright so we're loyal, read exerts from Terrie's book which you definitely should do. If you visit www.blackpain.org... www.blackpain.org. Join us next week for another segment of the Down and Up Show on Depression is Real.org, I'm Dr. Reef Karim.