Brought to you by the Depression Is Real Coalition, The Down & Up Show is dedicated to the reality of depression. Our hosts will talk with some of the world's top experts on depression, as well as people who have been impacted by this illness. The reality of depression is that it is a debilitating and potentially deadly medical condition that affects more than 15 million Americans every year. The other reality of depression is that there is hope.

Down & Up Show #27: Is Life Simply Harder for Some People?

The Down and Up Show on Depression is Real.org, a talk show dedicated entirely to the subject of depression and the reality that there is hope for people living with this disease, now your host, Terri Williams.

TERRIE WILLIAMS:
Welcome to the Down and Up Show on Depression is Real.org, I'm your host, Terri Williams. We have a very exciting guest with us today, award winning author, Ann Packer. We're going to talk with her about her most recent novel, ÒSongs Without WordsÓ which gets to the heart of the topic that is so important to all of us, depression.

ÒSongs Without WordsÓ is Ann's second novel, her first, ÒThe Dye from (Unint.) PeerÓ was a critical success that became a national best seller and was translated into 10 languages. Both novels explore the impact of tragedy on families, relationships and gut-wrenching personal decisions.

The ÒTragedy in SongsÓ centers on a suicide attempt and examines the devastating affect depression has on families and friends and it goes unrecognized and untreated. I also think this book really helps us to understand why life is simply harder for some people. I urge everyone to read this important work, it's life transforming.

Ann I'm delighted to speak with you today.

ANN PACKER ANSWER:
I'm so happy to be here.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
Can you give us just a brief synopsis of ÒSongÓ?

ANN PACKER ANSWER:
Sure, this is a novel about a friendship between two women, Liz and Sarah Beth, who have been devoted friends for 30 years, going back to the time when they were teenagers and Sarah Beth's mother committed suicide. The novel actually takes place 30 years later when they're grown andÉ living separate lives but are still very close.

And it looks at what happens to their friendship with Liz's teenage daughter, Lauren, enters into a serious depressive spiral and actually makes an attempt on her life.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
UmmÉ very deep.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
Excuse me, your book is very, very compelling and beautifully written.

ANN PACKER ANSWER:
Thank you.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
You have an interest inÉ in tragedy no doubt stemming from some personal experiences. Would you share with our listeners why you chose to write a topicÉ you know, to write a novel on this topic of depression and suicide?

ANN PACKER ANSWER:
Sure I do, I do have some personal experienceÉ of a few different kinds actually. I suppose mainly the personal connection is that my own father committed suicide when I was 13 years old and so I've been interested in life and in my writing, trying to understand the ways in which traumaÉ kind of echoes through life and has an affect on those people to whom the trauma happens and the people around them and the people around them.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
Well first let me say that I'mÉ so very sorry for your loss, anytime, but particularly at such a young age.

ANN PACKER ANSWER:
Thank you.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
You had brothers and sisters andÉ

ANN PACKER ANSWER:
One younger brotherÉ yeah.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
And how old was he andÉ

ANN PACKER ANSWER:
He was 12 at the time, just a year younger.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
He was 12?

ANN PACKER ANSWER:
Yeah, and we'd been livingÉ we'd been living in the shadow ofÉ of my father's depression for several yearsÉ which was really triggered by a stroke that he hadÉ almost four years before his suicide that paralyzedÉ his right side and you know in addition to the kind of physical limitations that placed on him, it alsoÉ you know affected hisÉ his emotional life and ultimately you knowÉ caused (inaud.) contributed to what (unint.) depression.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
Is it still difficult for you to speak about?

ANN PACKER ANSWER:
It's notÉ it's not anymore you know, I'mÉ I'm almost 50 so I've had a few decades to kind of process it andÉ you know I think one of the difficulties when you're a child is thatÉ and I think that this is true even now, 30 years later, but it was particularly true in the early Ô70s.

That this was something that people just didn't speak about and (unint.) stigma around (inaud.) so powerful that it was difficult to talk about it, not just because it was you know personally soÉ so powerful an event, but also because people didn't (inaud.).

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
Wanted toÉ ask you a little bit aboutÉ (unint.) symptoms of depression that are described so realistically you know capturing the pain and the confusionÉ did your own personal experienceÉ

ANN PACKER ANSWER:
I didÉ

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
To develop LaurenÉ

ANN PACKER ANSWER:
As I said, I have you know I have struggles (inaud.) so partially I was drawing on my experience but I was also drawing on my memory of being at that age (inaud.) and I didn't have anything like theÉ the illness that Lauren is suffering from in the book. But you know in retrospect I was certainly, I was certainly depressed even then andÉ I think IÉ people have commented that she's a very realistic character and you know asked me did I do research, did I spend time with teenagers?

In fact it's only really just that I was one long ago that kind of furnished the detail andÉ enable me to write this character who's in so much pain.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
I hadÉ I had a thought aboutÉ well let me justÉ I'll ask you this and then I'll come back to it whenÉ

ANN PACKER ANSWER:
Okay.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
É when it comes back to meÉ the (unint.) character Lauren's symptoms of depression largely go unnoticed by her mother Liz, even though she's a very attentive mom andÉ and very involved in her children's lives. Why do you think thatÉ many people with depression slip through the cracks and that their disease is not recognized until too late?

ANN PACKER ANSWER:
YeahÉ you knowÉ you know it's soÉ so difficult. I think that part ofÉ part of the anxiety of parenting is knowing that you can't always be aware of what your children are going throughÉ and I think sort of paradoxically because we know thatÉ they can go through such challenging (inaud.) sometimes we don't see what's right in front of us because to actually see it would be (inaud.).

And you know it's that powerful mechanism of denial that we all have so that Liz, despite having the best intentions and despite being worried, she kind ofÉ explains it away to herself or tries toÉ tries to locate Lauren's unhappiness in the external things that happen to her and to sort of think oh, well that's why she's so upset, this happened, rather then just saying, everyone has difficult events in lifeÉ and a mark of health is really dealing with it (inaud.) you can't deal with it the external challenges.

So you know I think there's that and I think there's also the fact that the people who are suffering from it, particularly teenagers who it's such an confusing time in life, I think that often people hide it

ANN PACKER ANSWER:
Right.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
But can you talk a little bit more about how depression and mental illness can just, you know, interrupt and even devastate familiesÉ friendshipsÉ

ANN PACKER ANSWER:
Yeah absolutely, I think thatÉ it's what we were talking about just a minute ago, the difficulty of going on when you feel you can't go on. Often what we ask of ourselves is that we take very, very good care of the people around us and duringÉ depression, that's just one of the many jobs that we can no longer do very well.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
A question that I would like to ask you aboutÉ are there things that you would recommend that people say to someone who's lost someone to suicide? I think that a lot of times people are uncomfortable about death periodÉ

ANN PACKER ANSWER:
Yes.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
And are awkward but I imagine that suicide adds another dimension of fear or you know not knowing what to say andÉ

ANN PACKER ANSWER:
AbsolutelyÉ you know IÉ I still remember the day I went back to school after my father's death, you know, I was out of school for several days and I went back and I remember I think I had PE first period. And I remember walking into the girls' locker room and hearing one of my friends say to another, here she comes or something like that.

And then not mentioning anything at all and thenÉ sometime later, like maybe at the end of the PE period, a girl I didn't know very well, came up to me and said, I'm sorry. And it wasÉ it was startling to meÉ the people who I was closer to at the timeÉ couldn't just say you know, I'm sorry.

And this almost strangerÉ could. And I think thatÉ I think that you know, just to say I'm sorry (inaud.) is there anything I can do, I think those little things are huge.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
So you must feel, I shouldn't put words in your mouth butÉ I just think how really incredible that you've been able to turnÉ what was a very difficult and trying experience for you and on some levels continues to be, to be able help so many other people. How does that feel to youÉ to have such an impact?

ANN PACKER ANSWER:
If IÉ if I am helping one person, I'm so delighted, I meanÉ you know it's funny, I don'tÉ I didn't set out with this book toÉ do anything other then try to tell a story. ButÉ the idea and peopleÉ readers have said to me that it helped me in one way or another, the idea that it can help (inaud.) have that kind of affect upon (inaud.) is just (inaud.).

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
It doesn't get much better then that.

ANN PACKER ANSWER:
No, it really doesn'tÉ it really, really doesn't.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
What do you do for fun?

ANN PACKER ANSWER:
I readÉ I go for for movÉ to movies and I really like hiking, yoga, cooking, getting together with friends. I'mÉ you know my book was published last month, and so the last several weeks have been devoted to book tours, book promotion, that kind of thing and you know I find that I really miss my friends and it's nice to be able to even if I'm just sitting in an airport somewhere have my phone and (inaud.) checking up.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
Is thereÉ anything else that you would like to say, any closing thoughts that you'd like to share with our listeners, anything that you just feel in your heart that you'd like to say?

ANN PACKER ANSWER:
You knowÉ giving what you're doing and what this is, you know I would just want to sayÉ something about compassion, I think thatÉ that it's very, very important that weÉ be compassionate with all kinds of suffering and you know that means the kind of (inaud.).

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
Without a doubt IÉ know itÉ often say that you justÉ you never know how many holes there are in the person next to you so that every time you walk out of your doorÉ you have a choice to speak to people in a fragmenting way or you know, in an inspiring and encouraging way.

And I just think we have that choice all the time.

ANN PACKER ANSWER:
I think that'sÉ yeah, that's a great way to think about it.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
Okay, nothing else for you?

ANN PACKER ANSWER:
No, I think not except just to thank you, I really, really appreciate your interest in the book (inaud.).

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
Oh we were very, very excited aboutÉ you know having you on and again, really justÉ I urge everyone to read this really amazing book, Ann Packer's ÒSongs Without WordsÓ is her latest novel and her first ÒTo Die From (Unint.) PeerÓ. So Ann thank you so very much for your time and for speaking with usÉ just continue to stay strong and share that amazing light of yours and you know transform lives.

For the Depression is Real Coalition, I'm Terri Williams, please join us next time for another edition of the Down and Up Show on Depression is Real.org, stay strong.

Thanks for listening to the Down and Up Show, for more information log onto www.depressionisreal.org. You can find us there and on I-tunes, and remember, stay subscribed.

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