Brought to you by the Depression Is Real Coalition, The Down & Up Show is dedicated to the reality of depression. Our hosts will talk with some of the world's top experts on depression, as well as people who have been impacted by this illness. The reality of depression is that it is a debilitating and potentially deadly medical condition that affects more than 15 million Americans every year. The other reality of depression is that there is hope.

Down & Up Show #23: Living with Depression as an African American Male

TERRIE WILLIAMS INTRO:
Welcome to the Down and Up Show, on depressionisreal.org. I'm Terry Williams, your host for today. For this episode, we'll be talking with John Head, who's the author of an amazing book called Standing in the Shadows: Understanding and Overcoming Depression in Black Men.

John was the recipient of the 2005 Erasing the Stigma Leadership Award, presented by the DeeDee Hirsch Community Mental Health Center in Los Angeles. He worked for more than 20 years as a journalist for the Detroit Free Press, USA Today, and the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, and served as press secretary to Maynard Jackson, Atlanta's first African-American mayor.

John, so very, very personally delighted to have this opportunity to talk with you. Your work is one that has just really transformed the lives of so many, and I've given it out to many, many brothers that I know who were just in need of your words and your courage. So, just thank you for being here.

JOHN HEAD ANSWER:
Well, thank you, Terry. It's a pleasure to be with you.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
John, your book is beautifully written, even as you discuss your own very, very difficult experience with depression. Would you share with our listeners your experience, and just why you wrote the book?

JOHN HEAD ANSWER:
Well, let me start by saying that the book, as it grew out of [unint.] a fellowship that I had at the Carter Center in Atlanta, in their mental health program, and also the reporting that I was doing for the newspaper, on mental health.

And what I found was that readers responded, and I was able to tell people's stories of their own struggles with mental health problems, and the hope that they were able to find. And the book that I proposed to write for my fellowship was just a generic book about mental health issues in the Black community.

But then, as that went along, I started to ask myself if this was really gonna be an honest book, and if it was going to be the most effective book. And I answered this question by saying that it couldn't be either of those if I didn't talk about my own struggles with depression.

And at that point I was just trying to get treatment after 20 Ð more than 20 years of untreated clinical depression, and so my experience with that, my experience of being in the depths of depression, being near suicide, abandoning my family, and then finding a second chance at life by getting treatment for depression, really, I thought, had to be told if I was gonna write an honest and effective book about [unint.] mental health in the Black community.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
Did you ever have any doubts about really sharing your own story? Did you feel, maybe that might not be a good move for me, career-wise? Did you ever Ð

JOHN HEAD ANSWER:
Yeah, I really was concerned about that, Terry. And I actually, I never spoke with much of anyone about my problems before the book. In fact, some of my family members, some of my brothers and my mother, even, said that they didn't understand what I was going through until they read the book.

They were unaware of the depth of the problem Ð they knew something was wrong, but they were very unaware of the depth of the problem until they'd actually read the book. So I was not a person who was willing to talk about my emotional problems, and I was Ð I had the same fears about stigma that most people have.

I was afraid that people would treat me differently. I was afraid that at work that they would think of me as someone who would not be able to do my work because I had experienced depression. So I really kept that to myself, and in the same way that a lot of people, especially Black men, keep silent because of the stigma that are attached to depression and other mental health issues.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
Can you tell us whatÉ What did this feel like for you? You said 20 years of untreated depression. JustÉ Give me a window on what that looked like, what that felt like, what it sounded like to you, so thatÉ So that someone else might be able to say, hmm, I recognize that in me.

JOHN HEAD ANSWER:
Well, Terry, I'd like to quote something that Dr. King once said in describing what racism is about. And he said that racism is intended to instill a degenerative sense of nobodyness in the Black people. And to me, that degenerative sense of nobodyness is sort of an epigram for depression.

It really makes you feel as if you are nobody, and that you are on the way down, [inaud.], no matter what you accomplish. And when you're listing some of the things that I've done, and these papers I've worked for, and working for Maynard Jackson was a great privilege and an honor, and despite having done those things in my life, I thought that I was a failure.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
When we're talking. I know that you have been sweeping this country, speaking to many, many different groups, and I'm wondering, what's your conversation? What are you hearing from Ð from other Black men, and what are you doing or saying to try to address this issue of stigma in our community?

I mean, for so many of us, we would rather tell someone that we have a relative in jail or on drugs before we will speak about depression.

JOHN HEAD ANSWER:
Right.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
And the pain that we're in.

JOHN HEAD ANSWER:
Well, I have to tell you, Terry, that you know, to start with, when you talk about driving around the country and speaking about Black men and depression, I do talks like that, and they're advertised as someone who's gonna come, a Black man who's gonna come and talk about Black men and depression.

And I, you know, walk out and look out at the audience, and 75% to 80% of the people out there are Black women, not Black men. And it's because our women care more about our health than we do. And so they are the ones who tend to go out and try to find the answers, try to figure out what can I do to help this person who I love, who I care about, who is my brother, my father, my uncle, the man I love, my husband.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
Can you just talk a little bit about the roles of, you know, the Black church in all of this? And did Ð in addition to therapy, what any other techniques or things that you used to try to heal yourself, orÉ How do you stay strong now?

JOHN HEAD ANSWER:
Right. Well, we'll start with Ð with the Black church. And one of the things that I'm asked most often when I go out to speak is, what about, can I go to my pastor? Can I go to my church to help? And I say, of course. That really can be a valuable resource.

And people alsoÉ I mean, people also tell me that they're concerned about going to a professional, because they think that, you know, the spiritual side of depression will not be addressed. And you have to understand that depression can really be not only a sickness of the mind, but a sickness of the spirit.

It can really affect that very important part of many people's lives, which is their faith. And it can test it. And so, if [unint.]É If you want to address that, and you think the best way to do that is to go to the church, and to talk with someone in the church about it, I say, yes.

That can be a very important resource. And I tryÉ I mean, I've spoken to pastors' groups several times. And I try to express to them how they can be a resource, how they can be a shelter in the storm for people who need help.

But I also try to tell them that the thing that they can do is to convince these people to come to them for help. That it's not a matter of them being bad people. And that it's not a matter of them not having enough faith, that they are suffering from an illness, and that, you know, the pastor can help them to a certain degree.

Sometimes, that may be enough. If it isn't, if you can get the church to say, okay, we've started the process, we've done what we can do, now let me refer you to someone else who can help you, just as they would refer someone else to a heart specialist.

If someone came to them with a health problem, and they talked to them and they explained what was going on, and the pastor did what he could do, he wouldn't just stop there. He would say, there's this doctor that I know, and [unint.] there.

So that kind of role, the church can play. As for other things that can be done, there are lots of things that impact our mental and emotional health. And so just addressing it through therapy, and medication when it's necessary, not only is it not the only thing you can do, it is not enough.

You really need to go beyond that, and you really need to address what it is in your life that's impacting you, that can be a trigger for this.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
Like toxic people?

JOHN HEAD ANSWER:
Yes. And also, also for me, it's things like a lack of exercise. If I am getting the exercise that I need and want, I am in a better frame of mind. If I'm able to get out into the sunshine once in a while, and not coop myself up in the office all day, I'm much better off mentally and emotionally.

If I get enough sleep, I'm much better off. If I eat properly, I'm much better off. Those are the kinds of things that you can do that can have an impact, and along with that, you know, the other significant steps of talking to someone and getting professional help if you need it, You justÉ

You can't end there. It has to be that you understand what it is about your life that makes you feel positive about your life. You've got to emphasize those things, you've gotta do those things.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
Yes. You're absolutely right. Just reallyÉ Yeah. [unint.] a word that we, of course, commonly use, just your triggers, you know? I just know for me, just not getting enough sleep, I get up the next morning, I'm irritable, and I'm crying, and I'm slapping at people.

You know? So if you know those things, then you do have to take those, you know, those measures. Is there anything else you wanted to add to that?

JOHN HEAD ANSWER:
Well, I mean, I justÉ I mean, one of the things that really made a difference to me is when I understood what some of the people who were working on the issues in mental health, and especially mental health among minorities, [unint.] and especially someone like David Thatcher, who, when he was Surgeon General, issued a report on mental health for the nation.

And also a special mental report on mental health in minorities. He talked about the disproportionate burden that mental health problems have in the Black community. And he talked about the need to do something about it.

To cut through the disparities that exist. We acknowledge the disparities in so-called physical health, but we don't talk about the disparities in mental health, and to have a hero like David Thatcher standing up and saying these things, and urging action, that inspires me to say, I want to try to be one of the solutions.

I hope everyone will listen to that kind of call and say, we're gonna do something about this for ourselves and for our community.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
Indeed. John, we're coming to the close of our time together. Is there anything in particular that's just on your heart that you would like to share with our listeners?

JOHN HEAD ANSWER:
Well, there's one Ð you, you mentioned something that sort of triggered a thought. You mentioned the cashier that may be off her game, and that's having a bad day. I mean, that made me think of something that my first therapist said to me in our first session.

Which is, I walked in and sat down, and she said, you look depressed. And no one had ever said that to me. And I thought about the number of times that I had been on a bus, or subway, or walking down the street and see a young black man with what we call Òthe look.Ó

And that look that says, watch out, I'm dangerous. I might do something to you. And we avoid him because of that look. And we interpret it as a look of anger and rage, but that also can be the look of depression, of someone who feels hopeless, who does feel angry, but it's angry directed inward at themselves.

And so if we can not automatically judge that person, and Ð and in a lot of ways, the system judges that person. There is Ð if a young black man gets in trouble, and the trouble is related to his emotional problems, the emotional problems aren't recognized.

What's recognized is the trouble, and he winds up in jail, when he might be better off just getting help. So if we can do what you said, is don't just judge the outside, and to try to get into what's going on there, and try to figure out how we can help, you might be able to make a difference for that person and will also solve some of the problems that we create when we incarcerate people unnecessarily.

Or when we judge them unnecessarily.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
Well, you know, you mention incarceration. I mean, there are so many people who are just being Ð with mental illnesses, that are just being warehoused in jails. You know, it's just Ð it's a horrific situation, and I think to just be a Black man in America is a profoundly difficult experience that I don't think many can appreciate.

I was Ð there was a very interesting Associated Press article a year or so ago about how Black men have to move through their lives and quietly combat stereotypes. A big, tall, especially maybe a dark-skinned Black man who is working in corporate America oftentimes Ð

And there were quotes from several Black men who said, oftentimes they have to speak in a softer voice, or have a different variation of their stance so that they will not be perceived as intimidating. Or the Black man who wears a suit, even on weekends, because he knows that he will be perceived differently, for the better.

Or the friend of mine was saying to me, he works at the New York Times, that he feels better when he carries his yoga mat under his arm, because then somebody might see him and say, oh, there's a Black man who practices yoga, so he must be okay.

And all of those things have a very profound impact on the psyche.

JOHN HEAD ANSWER:
They do, Terry. And I've talked to people like Dr. Carl Bell [ph.] from Chicago, and [unint.] at Harvard, and they talk about the micro-insults. These little things that people say and do that we don't even notice on a conscious level, but subconsciously they do affect us.

Things that, you know, maybe people exhibit the stereotypes of their beliefs and stereotypes, and we may not even be cognizant of it, you know, consciously aware of it. But the fact that it happens is sort of bubbling underneath here, and it can cause us to have that bad day you talk about.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
Yes. So let us leave today on a note of optimism and hope. Is there anything, any parting words that you might want to just share? Maybe a phrase or something that keeps you going, helps you to stay strong.

JOHN HEAD ANSWER:
Terry, I spoke early on about the second chance in life that I got once I started to get treatment for my depression. And the biggest change of that second chance at life was my relationship with my family, with my wife and my son.

And that really has made all the difference, for them and for me. It really has made it worthwhile to break through those barriers, to break through the stigma and get help, because I really am now able to relate to my sons on an emotional level that I was not able to relate to them before, and they know now how much I love them.

It's something they did not know before.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
That's a really beautiful note to end on. Thank you so very, very much, John, for talking with us today, and being courageous enough to share your story, and really help, encourage, and inspire people.

JOHN HEAD ANSWER:
Well, Terry, thank you, and thank you for all the work that you do. You are a leader, Terry, and I appreciate the things that you do.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
Thank you. For the Depression Is Real Coalition, I'm Terry Williams. Please join us next time for another episode of the Down and Up Show on depressionisreal.org. Stay strong.

END OF RECORDING