Brought to you by the Depression Is Real Coalition, The Down & Up Show is dedicated to the reality of depression. Our hosts will talk with some of the world's top experts on depression, as well as people who have been impacted by this illness. The reality of depression is that it is a debilitating and potentially deadly medical condition that affects more than 15 million Americans every year. The other reality of depression is that there is hope.

Down & Up Show #10: Shocked and Relieved

IAN VO DOWN & UP INTRO

The Down & Up Show on Depression Is Real.org. A talk show dedicated entirely to the subject of depression, and the reality that there is hope for people dealing with this disease. Now, your host, Dr. Ellen Frank.

DR. ELLEN FRANK INTROS Kitty Dukakis, Former First Lady of Massachusetts

Welcome to the Down and Up Show on Depressionisreal.org. This week's episode Shocked and Relieved is about depression and electro convulsive therapy or ECT, once a controversial therapy dubbed shock treatment. Early versions of ECT were perceived as inhumane and even harmful. What many people don't understand is that today's ECT has improved dramatically since it was first introduced in the 1930s.

Our guest Kitty Dukakis will give you a totally different story, a story of how in her own words electro convulsive therapy opened a new reality for her. Kitty Dukakis is the wife of former Massachusetts Governor and Presidential candidate Michael Dukakis. She'll discuss with us her once seemingly endless bouts of depression, drug and alcohol addiction and her success with ECT.

Kitty can speak about what it was like to live with depression before and after she sought treatment from doctors and the relief she felt once she received appropriate help. Kitty, thank you so much for joining us today.

DR. ELLEN FRANK / KITTY DUKAKIS

ELLEN FRANK QUESTION:
So I really want to thank you for being so brave and speaking so openly about your experiences with depression and electro shock therapy. Your book, the healing power of electro shock therapy has been available for several months now. How's it been received?

KITTY DUKAKIS ANSWER:
In extraordinarily positive ways. It has É I don't know the number of books that have been sold. My co-writer, Larry Tie (ph.) has this thing about not determining that for a good eight or ten months, so I'm not going to find out for a little while now. But it's doing very well. And I've had, the response I've had in terms of letters and e-mails and correspondence has been pretty extraordinary.

ELLEN FRANK QUESTION:
And what do you think was the real turning point in your life in terms of recognizing that you had depression and that it was something that warranted treatment?

KITTY DUKAKIS ANSWER:
Well, I knew right away that something was very wrong. Clinical depression is very different from feeling sad about a loss or a death of a loved one or any of those very difficult events in one's life. My depression, like others who have clinical depression was very deep and dark and I didn't, I wasn't able to get relief from anti-depressants or from talk therapy.

ELLEN FRANK QUESTION:
So you talk a little bit about your drug and alcohol addiction. How was it that you began the amphetamine use in the first place?

KITTY DUKAKIS ANSWER:
Well, I think the reality is that in those days they were given very loosely. Women who wanted to lose 10 or 15 pounds took them. My mother took them and I found one of her pills one day and took it and liked the way I felt and was able to lose weight. And that's how it began. It was a É I think a rather typical situation in the 50s.

But I continued using them, most people did not. And although I didn't escalate my use, which is the usual way people treat drugs, I certainly was addicted.

ELLEN FRANK QUESTION:
And how was it that you just one day suddenly decided that you were going to stop taking them? How was it?

KITTY DUKAKIS ANSWER:
No, I went into treatment. I went to Hazelton in Minnesota and it was a very difficult time because Michael was running for re-election and just decide with my family that this was the best thing to do.

ELLEN FRANK QUESTION:
And it was after that that you first started experiencing depression.

KITTY DUKAKIS ANSWER:
The depression really started after I stopped taking them at Hazelton. And that was the beginning of my trying to, being prescribed anti-depressants. And they just did not work. And if they did work it was for short periods of time, and because I was on so many different ones there were side effects that were very unpleasant. And it just was a very difficult time. Seventeen years of going through these cycles where I would be all right for eight or nine months and then would just cycle down again.

ELLEN FRANK QUESTION:
And how did you decide that you wanted to pursue ECT as a treatment?

KITTY DUKAKIS ANSWER:
Well, I was at Mass General Hospital because of my alcoholism and the doctor in charge of the unit asked Michael and myself if we had ever heard of electro convulsive therapy, ECT, and I had never heard the name. I had certainly heard of shock treatment, very negatively, as so many people did with One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest and other movies that was pretty graphic and negative.

And so that when it was first broached I was, I felt rather negatively. And my depression at that time lifted, as it periodically did, and I said that the next time I found myself in this position again that I would try ECT. And it was another year after that, maybe ten months after that that I tried ECT. And it was successful from the beginning.

ELLEN FRANK QUESTION:
How long exactly did it take you to respond to ECT?
KITTY DUKAKIS ANSWER:
Almost right away. I mean, one usually has six treatments. And that's the usual number. I have unilateral treatments on one side. And Michael remembers and I was a little groggy certainly after anesthetic, but Michael remembers my waking up and smiling at him, when I woke up, which was a very positive sign.

And it was our anniversary, six years ago, and I had said to him before the treatment I didn't think that I was going to feel much like going out to celebrate. And on the way home I turned to him and said I think I want to go out dinner tonight. And that was the beginning. It certainly with another two or three treatments that there was a very definitive turnaround.

ELLEN FRANK QUESTION:
It is amazing how quickly it works.

KITTY DUKAKIS ANSWER:
Yeah. It does with so many. I have heard so many, so many stories since our book was published from people all over the country and abroad, from abroad as well. And many of them, although it doesn't work you know 100 percent of the time, a good 70 to 80 percent of people are helped by this treatment.

ELLEN FRANK QUESTION:
You talk a little bit about a common side effect of ECT; that is memory loss. Tell us a little bit about how that's affected your life.

KITTY DUKAKIS ANSWER:
I tell the story about our going to Paris before I had my first treatment. We were in Paris and that's when the depression began, right before I had my first treatment. And as is often the case with memory it is oftentimes the period right before treatment and sometimes the period right after where there are difficulties with memory.
I have no memory of that first trip to Paris. And that's just the way it goes. We went back again, several years it was my sister and brother-in-law, and she came to our room and asked me to come out and talk to her and she said how could you have come back to this crummy hotel? And I said I have no memory of it, absolutely none. And we laugh about it now.

But just recently I saw a movie for the second time and I have no memory of having seen the movie the first time. And it was, and I saw it the first time within a two week period of my having ECT.

ELLEN FRANK QUESTION:
Do you feel that on balance, weighing the benefits of ECT in terms of improvement in your depression and these lost memories that it's still worth having ECT treatments?

KITTY DUKAKIS ANSWER:
Absolutely. I call it a trade off. And there are going to be some memory deficiencies and memory losses, cognitively I don't seem to have much difficulty at all. I have particular problems within the first few weeks of treatment when I sometimes will not remember names or telephone numbers and that kind of thing.

ELLEN FRANK QUESTION:
But that passes.

KITTY DUKAKIS ANSWER:
That passes, absolutely.

ELLEN FRANK QUESTION:
So it's really very specific to the period right before and the period right afterÉ

KITTY DUKAKIS ANSWER:
Right after.

ELLEN FRANK QUESTION:
Étreatment. And other than that you don't really feel that there are any associated problems with them.

KITTY DUKAKIS ANSWER:
No, absolutely no others.

ELLEN FRANK QUESTION:
Okay, let's turn the discussion to a little bit different topic and that is being the spouse of a high profile person like the Governor of a major state or a Presidential candidate. How did your husband's Presidential bid effect or exacerbate your depression?

KITTY DUKAKIS ANSWER:
I think very little. First of all I'm the daughter of a very well known musician who passed away four years ago. My dad was very well known in New England; he was a violinist and a conductor, and so that I was used to some of that growing up. And there were very well known people from around the country who were in our home often. So that the celebrity piece of this was not a terribly difficult adjustment for me.

ELLEN FRANK QUESTION:
Celebrity was something that you had sort of grown up with.

KITTY DUKAKIS ANSWER:
I had. I'm a person who enjoys meeting other people and I'm outgoing and have been for a long time. And I enjoyed the campaigns for the most part. And fortunately the depressions when they came did not come during periods of time when I was on the road. And so I was able to handle things quite well during the campaign.

ELLEN FRANK QUESTION:
What would you say has helped you most in fighting your depression?

KITTY DUKAKIS ANSWER:
There's no question in my mind it's the ECT treatment. And one of the things that I talk to folks about is that it's very important is choosing a doctor with whom you have a very close good relationship. And I've been blessed with a wonderful doctor. He's head of the ECT unit at Mass General Hospital. And Dr. Ralph (ph.) is just that kind of person. And one should interview a doctor before having treatment to make sure that there is a fit.

ELLEN FRANK QUESTION:
You say that ECT gave you back your life. For those who are considering shock treatment or who have not had success with other therapies, what advice would you give them?

KITTY DUKAKIS ANSWER:
First of all, it brings up my hope to begin a support group where those of us who have had treatment can talk with people who are contemplating having ECT, having electro convulsive therapy. It's very important to have someone to discuss what happens during a particular treatment. And I would tell them that it is, you know, certainly not a benign treatment because one has anesthesia. But it is worth the six treatments that I have to be over the difficulty with depression.

ELLEN FRANK QUESTION:
Often with ECT, one of the challenges is maintaining the well state after the ECT treatment. And I'm just curious to know how you've been able to do that.

KITTY DUKAKIS ANSWER:
I have chosen not to do the maintenance, which in some cases people have every month or every two or three months. And I prefer the wait. I think this is a very individual decision. And the usual timeframe for me is anywhere from nine to ten months. And it cycles just like my depressions used to cycle. And I tell my doctor after the first signs appear and I'm in the hospital within a very short period of time.

ELLEN FRANK QUESTION:
So you've really used it as an acute treatment whenever you've been, whenever you've found yourself cycling back into depression.

KITTY DUKAKIS ANSWER:
Right.

ELLEN FRANK QUESTION:
But not as a way of preventing the next depression from coming.

KITTY DUKAKIS ANSWER:
No. And that as I say is very individual. There are people I've talked to who are perfectly happy to go through maintenance on a much more frequent basis.

ELLEN FRANK QUESTION:
Any final thoughts for our audience?

KITTY DUKAKIS ANSWER:
No, that I just hope that we can erase the stigma. You know we've had a huge stigma in this country of mental health generally, and a very large one for ECT. And I hope people will read Larry and my book and glean from both of us, Larry's done the definitive research and has written very well about what is happening in the field in this country and in other countries in the world. And I would hope that they would read as much material as they possibly can and attempt to find people who they can talk to, who have had this disease.

Up until recently people who have had successful ECT never talked about it. They were too embarrassed about the social stigma attached to it. And I'm hoping that that can change.

ELLEN FRANK CLOSE:
Well, thank you for your courage in coming forward to talk so publicly.

KITTY DUKAKIS ANSWER:
Thank you so much, lovely to be with you.

ELLEN FRANK CLOSE:
Your story should certainly inspire others to fight to get appropriate treatment for their depression and help relieve the stigma surrounding ECT. For the Depression is Real Coalition, I'm Ellen Frank. Join us next time for another segment of The Down and Up Show from Depressionisreal.org.

IAN VO CLOSE

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